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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 19, 2009 4:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

OMG...

Define "success".

Oh, and as to your example, please examine the history of the relatively secular Turks and Istanbul...ask the modern Islamists what they think of what those folks did vis-a-vis the Holy Land and the Koran and the rest and get back to me...

So have my brethren on the Emerald Isle. 800 yrs. What has it got them?

You can't be serious.

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 19, 2009 4:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Muslims invaded & conquered Christian and Judean lands...get yer facts straight.

European Roman Catholics decided to "reclaim" the Christian Holy Land from the illegal occupation of Muslims.

The Muslims easily defeated the Roman Catholics and won the Crusades,...Muslims even occupied southern Europe for 500 years. Their pressence in Southern Europe is strong.

Yeah, Islam is a failure at world expansion, only 1.5 billion world wide...Jihad doesnt' work....gotcha...ok. uh huh.

Islam was created 600 years after Jesus Christ was Crucified. Jews and Christians dominated the Asia Minor, the middle east, north africa, the mediterranean until the violent invasions of Muslims.

If Turkey is so secular, where are all the Jews and Christians in HIGH LEVELS OF GOVERNMENT? I will tell you...

Islamic law does not permit DHIMMI'S to rule muslims. Dhimmitude is alive and well in Turkey.

When some Christian or jew is elected "President" in Turkey then It can be called "secular" Until then its just another word, smoke and mirrors from Islam to appease the west for access to trade, loans, business.

This post was modified by oh_uh_um_ah on 2009-07-19 23:52:09

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 19, 2009 8:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

OK, what did you miss about "relatively"?

Answer me this: who did the Turks fight in the Mid East during WWI? Ask all of those folks there now how their countries came about at the close of that conflict...was it due to this Turkish rule you alluded to? Had they all been happy with the Ottoman Empire?

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 20, 2009 6:05am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

The Turks committed GENOCIDE on Christian Greeks and Armenians from 1915-1925...killed millions.... INSIDE Turkey...and the Democrats in the USA ignored the horror.

A few years later Hitler did the same thing to the jews...

Monkey see, monkey do.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 20, 2009 6:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Can you stay on topic? That was my point--you started by stating that the Muslims controlled the Holy Land for 1000 yrs, etc., completely forgetting it was the Turks, NOT THE Muslims you allude to (there are differences, and YOU know it).

The Shias/Sunnis/etc were NOT happy with the Turks for all those yrs of oppressive, anti religious rule, and fought them til we assisted in liberation (ironic, eh?) and established boundries via Churchill in the 20s...good or bad, we where there (by "we" I mean the West). We also got the oil out of the ground for them...

So, it's a bit more complicated than "the muslims have been fighting US for 1000yrs and winning" etc., etc.

They have been fighting among themselves since the start, and not very successfully either (again, WE rescued them from the Turks; WE gave them the keys to the Kingdom via Standard Oil, etc., etc., etc.).

Can you do anything besides blurt tangential cliches?

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 20, 2009 9:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

"(again, WE rescued them from the Turks; WE gave them the keys to the Kingdom via Standard Oil, etc., etc., etc.)."

And it's a bit more complicated than that!

The West tricked them in WWI; see the book "A Peace to End All Peace." The Brits, French, and Russians carved up the territory for themselves.

But of course since the West has the most barbaric warlike people in the world, we fight amongst ourselves for total spectrum dominance. Sure we talk democracy, but ask the Iranians what happened to their free elections in the 50's, or ask the Arabs in "Saudi" who the tyrants are.

As communicated in the movie "Syriana," the Arabs know their prized resource has a limited life in the long run, and they want something built to last, not a Saudi family fiefdom.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 20, 2009 10:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Yep, even more complicated than that...but I was making the point for mr simpleton.

Don't worry, I know where we stand as well, but I was trying to convey that when it comes to "war", whether it be local tribal conflict, or full scale nation on nation, the mid-east is both right there with us (ie, the negatives of war have kept them down more than up, if you ask me), and by no means easily protrayed as having a united front that "took" the Holy Land, etc., etc., etc.

I have read those/seen those you mention, but just out of curiosity, you don't really view those folks as victims to the degree these folks portray them (ie, Mid East tribal units)? The way they treated other groups of their own and did everything to "get theirs" at the expense of their supposed muslim brothers matches ANY atrocities of the West...Examining how they divided up the Mid East post WWI (as they went along with "us") and what they (neighboring arab states using them as pawns) did to the Palestinians was appalling...

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 20, 2009 11:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

It's hard to say what would happen without exter4nal intervention. The world powers each pick cutthroat partners to keep up the turmoil and prevent the "other" side from winning. Just beyond the short run, everyone loses.

What would Iran be without all the shah's men, a democracy in control of their oil resources? The worst mullahs would probably be weaker. But even now, the top (or a top) mullah has a PhD in philosophy from a German university, so it's like not their totally informed like many of our leaders.

I think that yes the third world has been victimized by the West -- for about 500 years! But again yes, they are themselves corrupt, and happily in the US we don't have bribe the clerk to get a driver's license, just to begin with.

But the ill we inflict and resources we steal will have to be paid eventually, in this life or the next. That's why we don't do our own ignorant children/citizens good when we shield them from their own error. But I can tell people in my family that we have hundreds of military of bases across the world for our own benefit, and they just can't think twice about it.

Why is a nation of about 300 million so afraid of 5,000 al qaida? I guess it's the same reason that some people blame Obama for the big recession -- zombie virus!

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 20, 2009 12:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Yep; that was sorta my original point that got lost in my overstated reactionary response to what's his name...doesn't excuse us by any means. I just get bristley when some folks (not you, nor even simpleton) portray some of them as innocent victims rather than (often) accomplices, etc., etc., doing much of the same to their "own" with our help...like here in the West with the Apaches and what they were doing to the others way back when and why some of those others welcomed folks that would combat them (the Apaches), blah, blah, blah.

As we both said--it's always a lot more complicated than the simple cliches suggest, and most any zealot with a cause almost by defn uses oversimplifications for advancing their case...As long as someone intelligent considers the issues, aware of the complexity, it's almost always the case that you can carry on a reasonable discussion, in part because the complexity never lends itself to simple summaries of black and white, etc.

Thanks for the input.

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 20, 2009 2:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

TURKEY IS A MUSLIM STATE...

THE CHURCH OF SOPHIA, THE WORLDS LARGEST CHURCH FOR 600 YEARS IN CONSTANTINOPLE WAS CONVERTED INTO A MOSQUE BY MUSLIMS....MORON.

GOOD GOD YOU ARE SUCH A DOPE.

Sunni and Shiites fight each other because the KORAN/Mohamet says NO SECTS in islam....hmmmm

This post was modified by oh_uh_um_ah on 2009-07-20 21:43:54

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 20, 2009 5:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

>>Sunni and Shiites fight each other because the KORAN/Mohamet says NO SECTS in islam....hmmmm>>

Wrong and simplistic.

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 20, 2009 5:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

You should read the Koran once spaceface...

you might learn something...

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 20, 2009 6:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

The Quran didn't seem to help you, but it's not over yet.

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 20, 2009 9:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

The Koran reminded me of Mein Kampf...

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 20, 2009 10:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

oh_uh_um_ah July 20, 2009 09:58:29pm
>>The Koran reminded me of Mein Kampf... >>

How?

This post was modified by spacedface on 2009-07-21 05:04:16

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 20, 2009 10:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

isn't it obvious?

Mein Kampf is a book of hate and blame toward jews...so is the Koran...moron. My god, did you fuckin read these books, asswipe?

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 21, 2009 7:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

>>>Mein Kampf is a book of hate and blame toward jews...so is the Koran...moron. My god, did you fuckin read>>>

On the contrary, the Koran champions the Jewish prophets and the Messiah. It's the ones that side with polytheists for material gain that are warned against.

It says in several places something like ~ whoever believes and does good, whether Jewish, Christian, and [something] will find paradise~

It also says that God doesn't like aggressors, so don't be one -- talking to the Muslims -- and repeats many times forgiveness, feeding the hungry, freeing slaves, etc.

I haven't looked at it lately, but what I remember is a far cry from your selective reading.

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 21, 2009 3:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

You are a complete and total fucking moron.

JIHAD is not peace and love...or understanding...

Name a muslim pacifist from islam in the last 14 centuries.

Where in the Koran did mohamet say love your enemies?

Where in the Koran does mohamet teach muslims to treat Jews and Christians as equals with Muslims in islam?

lap up the shit KQED feeds you, you dumb son of a bitch.

Mohamet says in the Koran convert the infidel, if he will not convert, enslave him, if he will not be enslaved, KILL HIM.

It is a CRIME TO CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY in Islam, the penatly is DEATH....so shut the fuck up you dumb son of a bitch, you believe everything people tell you and have no mind of your own to use to stand up and FIGHT FOR THE TRUTH.

MORE 9-11's are coming to a BLUE STATE near you....muslims NEVER STOP KILLING. dumb bastard.

This post was modified by oh_uh_um_ah on 2009-07-21 22:24:28

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 21, 2009 12:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

"lap up the shit KQED feeds you, you dumb son of a bitch."

"MORE 9-11's are coming to a BLUE STATE near you....muslims NEVER STOP KILLING. dumb bastard."

How very pacificist Christian of you. Peace!


>>>"Mohamet says in the Koran convert the infidel, if he will not convert, enslave him, if he will not be inslaved, KILL HIM.">>>

That is a pack of lies. Citation if you dare. I'm a reader and can and will follow up. Your delusionary world -- that ugly face you pose -- well baby it's your fire.

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 21, 2009 3:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

name one book you've read on muslims, islam, jihad, or the history of the middle east, north africa, southern europe, the mediterranean, asia minor...

here's a website you're sure to hate:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/

JIHAD....what the fuck do you think that is?

The Koran does say if two men commit a lewd act and repent, it is a forgivable sin...its in the book called women, I think it's like sura 4:13-33...I always tell my gay friends.

PS: BRO? like Jesus never called ANYONE a Christian, he always called them sinners. I am a sinner, just like you.

This post was modified by oh_uh_um_ah on 2009-07-21 22:29:26

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jul 21, 2009 3:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

And if Jesus Christ was as boring as you, I'd have picked up a hammer and slammed in the last nail....

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 22, 2009 9:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

I'll name one book for you:

* Turks, Moors, and Englishmen in the Age of Discovery
(Columbia UP, 1999)

I won't name others I read, for you. Just in general, I liked these and found all of them in SF, Berkeley, Palo Alto, or Menlo Park:

* Islam in Britain, 1558-1685 (Cambridge UP, 1998)

Arabic and European captivity accounts (Matar having been himself held hostage in Beirut in 1986)
* Piracy, Slavery, and Redemption (Columbia UP, 2001),
* In the Lands of the Christians: Arabic Travel Writing in the Seventeenth Century (Routledge, 2003).

There's many more, but I'd recommend:

* Maria Menocal, The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Christians, and Jews Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain

* The Cross and The Crescent: The Dramatic Story of the Earliest Encounters by Richard Fletcher

* George Makdisi, The Rise of Colleges (1981) and (only skimmed) The Rise of Humanism (1990)

* The Venture of Islam, 3 Volumes, by Marshall Hodgson (I read parts)

* The Matter of Araby in Medieval England by Dorothee Metlitzki

* American Palestine: Melville, Twain, and the Holy Land Mania by Hilton Obenzinger

* Servants of Allah: African Muslims Enslaved in the Americas by Sylviane Diouf

* The Crescent Obscured: The United States and the Muslim World, 1776-1815 by Robert Allison

* For Zion's Sake: The Judeo-Christian Tradition in American Culture by Fuad Shaban

* Norman Daniel, Islam And The West: The making of an image (formidable for neocons)

* Edward Said, Orientalism (New York: Vintage Books, 1979)

* "The Truth about Muslims" by William Dalrymple in the New York Review of Books
http://www.mafhoum.com/press7/211C32.htm
and recently
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23704226-details/Brave+words+for+a+new+peace+with+the+Muslim+world/article.do

Also The Oxford History of Islam, edited by John Esposito is quite readable with nice pictures.


For the religion of Islam you could try:

* The Vision of Islam by Sachiko Murata and William C. Chittick, commissioned by an academic friend I met in the SF Zen Center

* Chinese Gleams of Sufi Light by Sachiko Murata
amazing perspective
http://tinyurl.com/mqq3eu

* Ibn 'Abbad of Ronda: Letters on the Sufi Path by John Renard (SJ), part of the Paulist Press Classics of Western Spirituality.


I lost most of these in a fire 7 move last year, so the stroll down memory lane was refreshing. More than I thought; couldn't stop. Thanks.

Several of the books are previewed at:
http://books.google.com

Background on ME:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jul 22, 2009 11:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

* The Venture of Islam, 3 Volumes, by Marshall Hodgson (I read parts)

He died during volume 3 so not his completed work. Really kind of a definitive volume. What I relied on when I did graduate level Islamic studies and used extensively on courses in Islamic law (my law school "thesis" was on the concept of "riba" - the Islamic prohibition against interest. The old Deutronomic double standard re usury).

But what do I know?

Here's my main mentor for things Islamic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lawrence

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 22, 2009 11:26am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Don't think I ever read Bruce Lawrence; not an academic.

"Riba", the Islamic prohibition against interest, would seem good to understand now. Who really needs absentee speculation anyway.

I've read 'The Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence' by Mohammad Hashim Kamali and good chucks of stuff by Sherman Jackson, Wael Hallaq, Bernard Weiss, and Nicholas Heer et al, much of it in Hastings library.

I got really interested when I read John Makdisi's 'The Islamic Origins of the Common Law' in the North Carolina Law Review (1999). Makdisi and others think that several fundamental English common law institutions may have been derived or adapted from similar legal institutions in Islamic law and jurisprudence, and introduced to England after the Norman conquest of England by the Normans, who conquered and inherited the Islamic legal administration of the Emirate of Sicily.

His citations and very interesting as well and lead back to his father's work on the rise of colleges and humanism. It turns out oddly enough that rules of freedom of speech found in Islamic lands was prized by Europeans in the Middle Ages and they made steps to copy it.

I spent a lot of time on Islamic law because it was before the rise of the corporation, and I thinking of a larger comparative project, but never even reached the level of this good summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Comparisons_with_common_law

Wikipedia does miss important things on methodology though. The basic foundations of Islamic is brilliant, though we disagree with where the branches lead. Five operational principles central to the Islamic tradition are important:
• Trusting reason
• Respecting dissent
• Stressing societal obligation
• Setting priorities
• Embracing maxims

The legal maxims are very interesting:
• Matters will be judged by their purposes
• Certainty will not be overturned by doubt
• Harm must be removed
• Hardship must be alleviated
• Custom has the weight of law

I had long review article now lost, but there's more on the legal maxims here:
http://nawawi.org/downloads/article6.pdf

Anyway, I'm not a lawyer or yearning to learn Arabic so job, politics, music, etc crowded out that research branch. I don't have any reason to mention this stuff elsewhere so please excuse the outburst.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 22, 2009 12:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

I've read that Muslims don't consider any country to be practicing Islamic law, so it's hard to judge what it really is.

For example some judges didn't think that all apostasy or theft were very serious. To be considered "a thief" you'd have to try hard often. I think the idea was that mercy and love are better, and safer for the judge on the day of judgment.

In the end there must be some middle roads where universals meet.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jul 22, 2009 1:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Yea, many different schools of law (Hanafi, Maliki, etc with various branches within each school) as well as differences b/w various Sunnia/ Shi'a beliefs, etc. Not exactly a monolithic worldview. It's a bit different in Marrakesh than it might be in Cairo or Tehran or Islamabad or Jakarta or Lagos ....

Here's some kind of off/on-topic fun:

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=27526

This post was modified by bluedevil on 2009-07-22 20:21:42

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jul 22, 2009 1:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Here in Britain we already have Sharia courts operating in a quasi-legal capacity:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article6609674.ece

Can't quite see it happening in the Land of the Free...

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jul 22, 2009 1:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

CRAP! Next thing I know, you'll try telling me our hero RT is some type of Sufi crazy mystic channeling guitar dervish. Then again, can one be a lapsed Sufi like a lapsed Catholic?

Then again, The Harder They Come ain't sung by a Rasta - Jimmy Cliff happens to be Muslim (as if it matters).

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 20, 2009 3:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

If Turkey is a muslim state, why did they (you know who "they" are) declare a Jihad on them?

Answer me that...

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 20, 2009 4:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Why did muslim turks invade cyprus Greece in 1974 with like 40,000 muslim jihadists, that STILL OCCUPY half the island today? wasssdat all about, dude?

Greek and Roman buildings and statues stood in PERFECT CONDITION throughout asia minor, and the mediterranean, and north africa unitl around the 15th century when the shadow of islam was cast upon western civilization and it toredown and erased the western "idols" for eternity.

Who blew up the Acropolis and why? Muslims packed it with bombs and Christians had to blow it up to deprive them of their weapons that would have been used to kill them, and western civilization.

The truth never changes.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 20, 2009 6:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

good example...that proves the point...as you have clearly revealed, they never were nor likely never will be one big happy family that we must fear because they have all joined forces to oppose us...they are too busy sorting it out among themselves, as you so consistently point out with your many examples.

thanks

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Jul 20, 2009 7:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Good Morning Will

:)

Oops I forgot, mature adults don't use various keystrokes / symbols to make pictures

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 20, 2009 7:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Good morning to you!

Well, how about coming up with "William Smell"?

If I wanted First Grade Humor, I would've incited Dire...(sorry D! JK...besides, he too immersed in marital bliss to bother).

I am shocked to see one of our favorite reviewers going toe to toe with one and all (at least he seems he's taking on the entire Forum...)...and as usual, the minute military history rears up, I get sucked in.

I really have to control myself. Pathetic knee jerk responses...I should know better.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 20, 2009 9:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

"Muslims invaded & conquered Christian and Judean lands"

The "Muslim" conquests were often quite easy since they were defeating corrupt powers and were welcomed as liberators. There are no forced conversions to speak of, certainly not like required by Serbs and Spanish Catholics for example.

And there were no "Judean lands" for most of 2000 years. In fact the only period there was a kingdom as most people imagine was for 70 years under David and Solomon.

The current site of the big mosque in Jersusalem was literally a Christian dump before the Muslims, and the Christians banned Jews from the area. If knowledgeable Jews feel at ease enough, they would give you an earful of how they feel about Christian magnanimity.

Anyone who uses the term "Dhimmitude" has been exposed to neo-con propaganda -- but be aware you'll get a better deal with God.

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 20, 2009 4:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Jews?

1 Thess 2:14-15 says Jews Killed Jesus...

Jews? You Mean the people like Caiaphas the Pharisee High Preist that charged, arrested, convicted and sentenced Jesus to death and then handed him over to the ROMANS to do their dirty deeds?

Funny how people forget that the Jews persecuted and killed Christians for the first 350 years of Christianity...

If you had read the Bible you'd know Saul/Paul was a pharisee ROMAN JEW and was present at the stoning death of SAINT STEPHEN...by jews.

Nothing like feedin Christians to the lions at the Coliseum in Rome and using Christians as human torches so Jews and Romans could be entertained....

Islam does occupy Christendom, and Judea, Fact!

neocon is a slur....isn't it, like the "N" word....oooo

This post was modified by oh_uh_um_ah on 2009-07-20 23:26:04

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 20, 2009 4:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Sure the Jews aren't lily white but then again neither was Jesus, which really must gall the KKK types. I don't like what many Jews say against Jesus and Mary, but you can't blame them as a group for perceived wrongs against Christians by the ruling polytheists. That would be insane, if you get my drift.

>>>Islam does occupy Christendom, and Judea, Fact!>>>

Islam is present in lands you seems to be indicating, but occupy? It's a not an army! In any case 70 years is not much of claim, especially since Christians would say the covenant was broken, unless it suits powerful Christians anyway.

Most Turks are now Muslim but they haven't built Muslim only roads like the Jews have in Israel and Palestine.

Whose lands were those before Christianity and Judaism? Are all Jews Judean? Was Abraham even a Jew? Was his son Isaac even an Israelite?

When did a Jew come to mean a person whose mother was a Jew?

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 20, 2009 10:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Abram wasn't a Jew until he circumcised himself at the age of 90 something, and GOD called him Abraham. Then he was the first Jew. That's what I read....

God's promise is with Abraham, Issac and Jacob (Israel). It is with the free woman, not the slave woman.

see below...

Galatians 4:22-31

Heavy stuff for a bunch of sinners....

PS: Jesus was GOD IN THE FLESH..emanuel...GOD AMONG US.
free from sin...uncorrupted from satan. Pleasing to God in everyway.

This post was modified by oh_uh_um_ah on 2009-07-21 05:09:04

This post was modified by oh_uh_um_ah on 2009-07-21 05:10:58

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 21, 2009 2:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

>>>Abram wasn't a Jew until he circumcised himself at the age of 90 something, and GOD called him Abraham. Then he was the first Jew. That's what I read....>>

Abraham was never a Jew. Judah was Abraham's great-grandson and as a territory wasn't even an entity until long after Abraham. I think it helps to keep the facts in mind when thinking about charged terms that can cause defensive or aggressive reaction.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 20, 2009 6:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

"God's promise is with Abraham, Issac and Jacob (Israel). It is with the free woman, not the slave woman."

Who said? Really, which groups are excluding who? And who gave THEM OUR oil?
Genesis 16:3 Sarai took Hagar and gave her to Abram her husband to be his wife.
--> Wife.

I'm not able to do a careful reading, but in Genesis 21, Sarah is jealous:

~ she said unto Abraham the son of this handmaid shall not be heir with my son
~ And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight on account of his son.
~ And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy handmaid. through Isaac shall your offspring be named.
~ And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring.

Abraham's seed is an inclusive nation that inherited the land of the Middle East. The Arab wing had a prophet -- was he Shiloh? The light that shone forth from Paran? The Paraclete?

These are questions not easily answered. How can you trust the word of the Roman empire after it persecuted Jesus' followers for hundreds of years? We still don't know what he said really, and certainly not in his own language.

It's not easy to sort through the murder and lies of the last few thousand years, and religions based on ethnic exclusivity and human sacrifice just aren't that attractive -- despite the validity of their original message.

Anyway, Abraham also had children by a Midianite woman; you may remember them from "The Ten Commandments." Midian might have had a prophet too.

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 20, 2009 9:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Dude, your bible is fucked...like Hagar was never married to Abraham....man, masters never married slaves...

which holy bible are you using? try George M. Lamsa's the Peshitta, or the New testament from the Greek, by James Kleist, S.J. The Bruce Publishing company, Milwaukee.

TRY THIS LINK: http://standardversion.org/

Oh, and by the way there are NO Christians in the Old Testament, just Godless scum, and a few ditzy Jews...but it's still a great read...eh? Sex, lust, murder, betrayal, deceit, justice, freedom, success, love, and forgiveness.

Either you are with me or you are against me...Jesus Christ.

Luke 11:23

here's another bible link:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=

PS: here are the places in the bible GOD warns people not to change his word, or else:

Deut 4:2, Deut 12:32, Prov 30:06, and Rev 22:19.

God loves a sinner that repents.

This post was modified by oh_uh_um_ah on 2009-07-21 04:54:11

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Poster: Richtitoducatssaiditbest Date: Jul 21, 2009 4:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

If you actually believe that the bible is 'the word of god'
then that's the only proof anyone needs that you are an idiot.

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 21, 2009 1:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

GODLESS SCUM

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 21, 2009 1:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

"oh_uh_um_ah Date: July 20, 2009 09:54:11pm

Oh, and by the way there are NO Christians in the Old Testament, just Godless scum, and a few ditzy Jews"

A delusional classic!

But really you should read your own reference on Hagar. It says WIFE.

The problem is with the Christian scripture is that we know just enough to advise caution in accepting its authenticity. The wording of the translations have been changed again and again, and it's still a mess even in the Greek.

Hey, what's the Aramaic for God? Check Lamsa's intro.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 21, 2009 1:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

I'm not saying that there's nothing authentic in the Christian Bible though.

It's just that who really said what is all mixed up. And even if we think it is something Jesus said, is it him personally for the Spirit, angels, or God himself. You know, the one on the throne of power -- not the one on the right hand side.

If Jesus is God, then who was he referring to?
"I came not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me,"

In fact much of John 14 is problematic for Pauline Trinitarian Christians. For a broader perspective, look at "The illustrated world's religions" by Huston Smith.

Smith was profile recently by Newsweek:
Huston Smith's 90 Years of Prayer, Yoga and Acid
http://www.newsweek.com/id/195695

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Poster: oh_uh_um_ah Date: Jul 21, 2009 2:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

FUCK NEWSWEEK....

I WOULDN'T WIPE MY ASS WITH NEWSWEEK...in fact I wouldn't even wipe YOUR ASS with Newsweek.

Obviously knowing right from wrong is way to complicated for most LIBTARDS to understand.

I never cast pearls before swine. You have ears, but cannot hear, you have eyes but cannot see.

confess your sins, repent, beg for forgiveness, ask Jesus to save you, and keep askin until he finds you...the darkness is strong around you...you come from a very old, rotten, corrupt tree.

Do you know why Jesus cut down the fig tree...

here's one: Luke 14:25-26

If anyone comes to follow me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters, even his life, HE CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jul 21, 2009 5:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Your speech is foul. By their fruits you will know them.

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Poster: shorthopper88 Date: Jul 21, 2009 5:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: RIP Walter Cronkite

Hey wow guys this is a great conversation... NOT